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It is admirable to believe this, people tell me, precisely because it does not seem to make sense. I do not understand such people at all. People have told me they find inspiration and comfort from reading the Bible. I have read the Bible, and I mostly find it appalling. How could anyone be inspired by the scientific gobbledygook of Genesis? Or the threats of eternal damnation in the New Testament? How coud anyone see a God of love and justice in the relentless horrors of the Torah? Some of my atheist friends are fond of referring to the Bible as a beautifully written work of fiction.
Does science tell us that humanity is just an afterthought of an evolutionary process that did not have us in mind? No problem, because it is possible that what appears random to us actually has a direction when viewed from afar. Does the cruelty, waste and suffering of the evolutionary process challenge the idea of a loving God? Does the ceaseless march of science make explanations based on the supernatural seem ever more tenuous and irrelevant? It is only the theologically unsophisticated who find God in what we do not know.
It all looks like tedious special pleading to me. To me it may as well have been written in a foreign language. They are not my arguments. You should have read my post more carefully.
They are from the late John Gerstner. Now I like Gerstner, quite a bit, in fact I greatly admire him, but he had a very different view on apologetics than I do. He is a proponent of evidential apologetics—i. I am a pure presuppositionalist—that is I believe that you must assume the existence of God and the inspiration of scripture. These are very different approaches—for example evidential apologists believe there is some value in employing apologetics with unbelievers.
Thanks for the clarification. You should probably add a line mentioning that you agree with only three of the seven points. I assumed you were outlining your own views, basing yourself on what Gerstner had previously said. The creationists who try to argue that evolution is flawed at least permit the possibility that they may one day be able to realize that they are wrong.
An airtight case, a slam dunk. They have managed to actually and really break their brains by thought alone. Christians must construct their own arguments for their god, because he refuses to reveal himself in the present age. Quite unlike their myths of ages past, where he continually sent his angels, spoke from a burning bush, parted seas, appointed prophets who performed miracles for doubters, gave sight to the blind, cured the sick, etc.
One of the hard questions for them is why their god makes his presence so easily ignored, given that he so much wants a relationship with every human. Do people look at you funny when you tell them that? On the other hand, I completely understand why apologetics is necessary for those who already believe, even though I find it absurd. Apologetics is for making disciples. The overwhelming evidence in favor of evolution is precisely why I abandoned the young-earth creationism with which I was brought up. I remain a Christian theist, though I must admit that I constantly find myself getting a little more deistic all the time.
I do not agree with YECs who deny the truth of evolutionary theory, but at least their stance is self-referentially coherent. Just today I had a long conversation with a bunch of Evangelicals, and the appeal to divine incomprehensibility was ubiquitous. When asked how they deal with the rather obvious cognitive dissonance, the answer will be something in the vicinity of.
God of the Bible is, given my premises, inconceivable, even logically impossible. Indeed nothing could possibly require more faith; to accept all of science, yet believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. There is, rationally speaking, zero probablity that God as conceived could exist; yet I believe. I suspect radical Kierkegaardian theology would kill off religion in a very few generations. The most that rational argument can do is show that a belief is irrational.
If someone frankly admits that his belief is irrational and is happy to believe irrationally, then that is indeed an argument stopper. Or you might might try non-rational means of influencing him brainwashing? Todd Wood is in the position of Wile E. Coyote who has just run off the edge of the cliff and is still moving his legs, not realizing that gravity is about to exert itself and make all his frantic efforts for nought.
Once influential creationists have backed up this far, it can only be a matter of time before they crash and burn. My evidence for this? You are correct—we are called by the bible to be able give a defense of what we believe. I have no problem with that—in fact I do it all the time, sometimes on this blog. But evidential apologetics argues that you can go on the offensive. In other words—unless asked I would never give the arguments for the inspiration of scripture to an unbeliever in the hope that it would convince him. Instead I would give them to believers, hopefully to strengthen their faith and their confidence.
But if an unbeliever asks, I am certainly willing to offer a defense. People get converted through some psychological process. In any intellectually honest area, there is no difference between the arguments used to convince and the arguments used to defend, and there is no place for conversion.
But those that religion relies upon for its success are precisely the ones that honest scholars view as impediments to real learning. I realize that the idea of a deceptive creator is problematic but should it be? A creationist who said that God created everything to look like an ancient earth and to appear that evolution was true would have little problem with any new discovery which today only sends them into hysterics of denial.
Indeed it would allow the creationist to actually make testable predictions about the biological world — something approaching real science! It is a show-stopper. Pretty much anyone who is trying to evangelize you will say that, yes, you have actually been seeing God all this time without realizing it. My point was simply that saying you see God in acts of kindness seems like a needlessly melodramatic way of describing something perfectly mundane. If it is meant literally, then I would ask how you know you are seeing God.
What other sort of reason is there, and why does it understand God better than the ordinary human variety? Both of them appreciate the kindness of their fathers, etc. Does that mean something? When you look in a mirror you see an actual object. How is this in any way the same? And guess who actually shows up? When it comes down to it, everyone acts as if there were no God.
I mean, come on! Open up your eyes! You got a brain, use it! Empirical methods are there, if you need them, to determine the creature in the mirror is a loud Homo sapiens painted blue. His team just scored a touchdown, you see. Tversky and Hemenway, among other psychological researchers, have looked at how people learn to classify things, if you want some names to look up. And people have proved capable of learning some quite arbitrary classification methods. Why would this be a surprise? Both main schools of thought in Christianity have simple explanations.
Arminians would say that the spread of Christianity follows the gospel and requires prior assent which naturally occurs more easily not in a vacuum but where there is support, instruction, etc. Calvinism says that God elects people and places them, to first order, into covenant families and communities. Neither view argues for random by-lottery salvation—so why should Christians be quasi-randomly distributed? Both schools are perfectly consistent with pockets of Christianity—which should in fact be obvious. Gosh this heddle fellow is an idiot.
What he just proposed is the most monstrous concept an apologist can put forth. Frankly it is so sickening that anyone with an ounce of moral fiber should be repulsed by it. I chalk it up to immaturity as an adult. No one who has an ounce of empathy could support such an immoral concept. Mike M, sees the obvious, others seek to obscure it no matter how ridiculous the apology expresses itself.
Who cares if they argue for it. It is the reality. I have had had many of my beliefs, such as predestination, labeled as monstrous—but this one seems a bit weak for such an honorific. One set of Christians would say: Christians are in pockets because before they make a choice for God they have to hear the gospel, see role models, see the positive effects of accepting the gospel, be discipled, have their hand held, etc. They would say that only a small percentage of Muslims convert because they are either prevented from hearing the good news, or are overwhelmed by pressure to conform, or the good news is constantly distorted, etc.
The other great school of Christianity would argue that Christians were chosen before the foundation of time. In doing so, God has placed them, for their benefit and his glory, in covenant communities. Of course the secular explanation, that it is purely cultural, is also quite plausible. In other words, either from a secular viewpoint or from a Christian viewpoint—and either major school of Christianity—you would expect exactly what you see: Just let me know.
I agree with you heddle in the context of what you are responding to, but I would think that this is as far as your point goes. No I understood your argument just fine. Your a tool and likely a real pussy. At least the secular version has some predictive power. In a culture of muslims one would expect the children to be muslims. Of course your only able to get away with it exactly because your pussy self is behind a computer. Only a coward would embrace some of the stuff you spew. You truly are a pinhead. Funny, thats what many say about you. All my argument was is that having a belief that some are chosen and some not BEFORE they do something is monstrous and that your are your cultures religion.
You off course have chosen the other, non stupid, ahem, side. Your pure intellect there loser. If I did show up all you would do is wet yourself, douche, and call the police. I seriously doubt you have any man skills whatsoever. You know upon reflection I apologize to heddle. I have been ridiculously harsh for no worthwhile reason. I think the problem boils down to the fact that the distribution of Christianity and every other religion is indistinguishable from what you would expect if it was merely a cultural movement that began in a particular location, and spread from there by missionaries, migrants, schisms, adoption as a state religion, etc.
Indeed, if that was the case, but all other religions maintained their current distribution, that would at least be evidence that there was something special about Christianity especially if it had actually appeared simultaneously all over the world. I think the problem boils down to the fact that the distribution of Christianity and every other religion is indistinguishable from what you would expect if it was merely a cultural movement.
But since it is completely unsurprising from a Christian perspective it is inconsequential as a pro or con talking point. True, but all Christians sprouting halos upon conversion would also indicate something special. The bible, however, predicts only the mundane—the slow spread through word of mouth. Pockets of Christianity would only be a problem if the bible predicted otherwise. This actually varies quite a bit from person to person.
I am firmly your camp, Jason. But my equally atheistic wife tells me that her life seems less exciting and vivid once she let go of her mostly-pantheistic beliefs about a divine plan. The Guild Of Food. The Forsaken House Of Guardians. The Fraternity Of The Disavowed. Fire Of The Forgotten. Fist Of The North. The Flame Of The Phoenix. Fellowship Of The Realm. Flight Of The Rayven. Ryders Of The Sword. Martyrs To The Frost. Live Your Life Live It. Yes It Is True. The Whizzo Chocolate Company. Frostty Fiends Are Fully Fueled. Girlz Just Wanna Have. Legion Of Tyrian Furries.
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